Thriving as a Sensitive Soul at Work - Dorcas Cheng Tozun

Sensitive, empathic, introverted. These are some of the ways that today's guest Dorcas Cheng Tozun would describe herself. Learning to thrive as a sensitive person, especially in the world of work, where those who are aggressive or assertive may often dominate, has been an important part of her journey and of many of our journeys. Dorcas has nearly 20 years of experience as a nonprofit and social enterprise professional. She's an award winning writer, editor, speaker and communications consultant. Her work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal and Christianity Today and dozens of other publications. She's also, at her core sensitive, and most recently, she's the author of Social Justice for The Sensitive Soul: How To Change The World In Quiet Ways.

Scripture References

  • Matthew 9:36
  • Exodus 2:11-15
  • Nehemiah 1

Additional Resources

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Transcript - Thriving as a Sensitive Soul at Work - Dorcas Cheng Tozun

Leah Archibald: Making It Work is brought to you by The Max De Pree Center for Leadership at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Theology of Work Project.

Mark Roberts: Welcome to Making it Work.

LA: Through conversation, scripture and stories, we invite God into work’s biggest challenges... so that you can live out your purpose in the workplace.

MR: I’m Mark Roberts.

LA: And I’m Leah Archibald. And this is Making It Work.

Sensitive, empathic, introverted. These are some of the ways that today's guest Dorcas Cheng Tozun would describe herself. Learning to thrive as a sensitive person, especially in the world of work, where those who are aggressive or assertive may often dominate, has been an important part of her journey and of many of our journeys. Dorcas has nearly 20 years of experience as a nonprofit and social enterprise professional. She's an award winning writer, editor, speaker and communications consultant. Her work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal and Christianity Today and dozens of other publications. She's also, at her core sensitive, and most recently, she's the author of the very impactful book that I enjoyed very much, "Social Justice for The Sensitive Soul: How To Change The World In Quiet Ways." Dorcas, welcome to the Making It Work Podcast.

DCT: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here.

LA: So let's start out with the keyword in the title of your latest book, which is Social Justice For The Sensitive Soul. What does it mean to you to be a sensitive soul?

DCT: Yeah, well, in the book I'm primarily talking about three categories of people that, there's a lot of overlap between the three. So individuals who identify as highly sensitive, which is a personality trait that we've known about for about 30 plus years. I think it's been around for as long as humanity has been around, but we've only had a name for it for the last three decades. And highly sensitive individuals are people who are very deep feelers, they are deep thinkers. They oftentimes are the contemplatives around us. They will take longer to ponder, to consider, to plan. But they also are folks who experience the world at a more intense level than those who are not as sensitive. So not only do we feel things emotionally very intensively, but even our brains are wired a little bit differently in terms of the sensory input that we experience. So if there were a loud sound and a sensitive and non-sensitive person were standing right next to each other, the sensitive person would actually experience that sound as louder than the other person. And so, the world is just a very intense experience. We see a lot of it. We hear a lot of it. We feel a lot of it.

And then the other two categories of people are highly empathic. So those who just can't help but connect really strongly with the emotions and experiences of others around them. And then the highly introverted who we know, introverts are people who enjoy solitude, find energy and restoration from quiet and being alone. So you may identify as all three of these, which I happen to. You may only be one or a couple of these, but these are all individuals that I consider to be sensitive souls.

LA: I love how you're even before we dive deep into the topic, there's this aspect of reclaiming the word sensitive in a positive way. I remember growing up, I would sometimes get teased, like, why are you so sensitive?

DCT: Yeah.

LA: We used to say, why are you taking it personally? Why aren't you cool? And I appreciated in your book, just hearing well, sensitive actually just means that we sense things very strongly. And maybe that's like a scientific fact. And what that means for us has implications on how we live our lives and especially how we work in the workplace.

DCT: Yes, absolutely. And research has shown that as many as 20%, maybe even up to 30% of the population can be considered highly sensitive. So this is not a rare trait. If you are not highly sensitive, chances are that somebody close to you is. And there are so many beautiful gifts that come with sensitivity. I think in our culture, especially in the workplace culture, there is, as you're saying, a lot of emphasis on people who seem to be more assertive, aggressive, loud. We see them as the strong leaders and yet sensitive people, their ability to connect with others, to understand others, they have a very keen eye for noticing the details, the things that others have missed. They are very much about inclusion, ensuring that everyone's voice is heard, everybody's at the table. And those are all the kinds of gifts that you would want people to have in your workplace, to create a really healthy work culture, but also to be really effective in what you're trying to do.

LA: Well, I imagine there's a lot of pressure in the workplace to hide our sensitivity, in the same way there's a lot of pressure on the playground to hide it. Dorcas from your own experience at work, how did being a sensitive soul impact your ability to fit into the workplace cultures of which you are a part?

DCT: Yeah, I think there was always the sense that I couldn't quite be who others wanted me to be. They wanted me to be the person who could make up my mind really quickly, which is not necessarily what sensitive souls are good at, who would always have something to say, be able to speak up on the spot, have a response to everything, be very confident and assertive in everything I was doing. I think also to be able to handle conflict and confrontation well, and not that sensitive people can't handle conflict and confrontation, but I think it just, it takes a more significant toll on us. We need to take a beat, we need to breathe. We need to sort of process our feelings, emotions, how it's hitting us, and we may need to come back the next day to resolve a conflict, right? We just may not be able to do it in that moment because the intensity of the emotions and all that we're thinking and feeling are just a little bit too much at that moment. We're not able to have the best, most coherent response or find the best resolution. So, I do think that there can be this feeling of inadequacy, just, but I think, that as we grow older, a lot of the wisdom that comes, I think, is recognizing that just because we're different, right, difference does not necessarily mean less than or bad or deficient.

It just means different. And so to appreciate, actually, that it's a good thing, that we don't have 100% of the population just plunging headlong into the next big idea or decision without the wise, contemplative, quiet people, kind of asking them to wait and to consider and to figure things out or to make sure that we've heard from everybody that we need to hear from. We actually, as sensitive individuals, provide a necessary and important and healthy balance, I think, to workplace dynamics. And yet, because we are in the minority, because we're countercultural in some ways, it is oftentimes going to feel like we're going against the flow. And that part of it can just be challenging.

LA: It's funny that it is, because for us people of faith, there are many examples in the Bible of some of our greatest heroes in scripture are also highly sensitive. And I think there's a sensitivity to the divine or there's a sensitivity that we cultivate in order to be able to feel God's presence or direction. Did you feel like that is true in your reading of scripture Dorcas?

DCT: Yeah, definitely. I think if you look in the Gospels and you see the number of times that it's recorded that Jesus was moved to compassion, right? And I think it's just so striking that the writers of the Gospels made sure, right. They were very intentional about including that in. It's not just, oh, Jesus saw someone, and then immediately healed him. It was like, nope saw someone move to compassion first, and then, 'cause it brings this, well, certainly it brings this humanity to who Jesus was and this reflection of the heart of God, right? But also, I think, demonstrates this lovely connection, right? That human connection that Jesus had with those around him, that he wasn't just the God swooping in to fix everything, but there was this heart connection, and we see that so much also in the writings of David in the Psalms, right? Those just heart wrenching laments. But I am so grateful for his honesty and his vulnerability right, his willingness to talk about the really hard things in life that we all experience, and to bring that before God as a full picture of this is who I am, this is what I'm wrestling with. And God, I want you to show up in every aspect of my life, not just when things are grand or easy or beautiful, but when things are really, really hard. That's when I need you. But I have definitely come to believe that sensitivity, it's a gift, it's a beautiful thing, and it is very much a reflection of God's heart.

LA: So I just wanna visit a particular scripture where Jesus is moved with compassion, because there's something instructive to me in that. This is from Matthew 9:36, and it says, "When Jesus saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion to them." And what just struck me as you were speaking, that never struck me before, is that first he saw the multitudes, and then he was moved with compassion. I mean, he was God. He probably could have thought about the multitudes or been aware of them. But there was this sensory interaction that Jesus had first in which he saw and noticed these people, and then he was moved with compassion, which I feel fits your description of sensitive souls, that there is a sensory experience of encountering the world, and then our reaction comes from that. It's not like, oh, we can't deal with the world and we're hiding from it. It's a way of interacting with the world that's very genuine.

DCT: Yes, yes. And I think the other key-piece to it, right, is that when you allow your heart to be open in that way, right? You allow your heart to be moved with compassion. More often than not. It will move you to action as well, to wanting to do something, to love others, to serve others. And that's a big reason why I wrote this book, is because people who are sensitive tend to be drawn to professions, volunteer opportunities, where they are doing some meaningful service, especially for people in need, people who are suffering, people who are oppressed. Because that's where we let our heart go. And our heart leads us to this really important kingdom work.

MR: I tell you, Dorcas, you really got me thinking in some new ways about people in the scripture, because I'm thinking, wow. So let me give an example. Moses. Now, Moses, he's the lawgiver. He's led the Israelites out of Egypt. I mean, he's a strong and a tough guy, except remember what first got him in big trouble. He saw one of his fellow Israelites being abused by a master and intervened, and killed the guy. But, I mean, that says something about the sensitivity of his soul. And then you remember his interaction with God, where God's going to send him to Egypt. He's like, I'm not a good speaker. I mean, like wow. Okay, Moses. Here's another one. I was thinking about Nehemiah. Now, again, we think of Nehemiah, who's, if folk aren't real familiar with the story, he comes Israel has been basically Jerusalem has been destroyed by the Babylonians. They're carted off in time, the Persian Empire takes control, and Nehemiah is a Jewish man who is working for the Persian king, and he's far away from Jerusalem, and he gets the report about Jerusalem, that the walls are torn down and everything's a mess.

Now, the way the story unfolds, he acts to correct that. However, the first thing he does in the book, is he cries for days and days about it. Now, I mean, honestly, I've never even done that, I mean, that's an amazing thing. Now, he was also a person who was strategic and super smart and could move people. And yet at the same time, when he comes before the king and the king says, Nehemiah you look sad, what's going on? Before he asks for what he wants from the king, he says in his book. And I was really refrained. So, I got, I mean I've never I wrote a commentary on Nehemiah years ago. I never once really thought about Nehemiah this way, but I think I would argue that both Moses and Nehemiah fit your model, and that's part of why God was so able to use them.

DCT: Yes, absolutely. I think that those are great examples. And so encouraging to see, right? That, again, sensitivity, not a deficiency. It's a gift that you can be an incredible leader as a sensitive person. It's gonna look different from what we might consider as your typical alpha leader. But still extraordinarily effective, really good at bringing people along, right? Rallying people to a cause and very much able to be used by God in powerful and meaningful ways.

LA: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about being used for God in powerful and meaning ways. Let's talk about the action, the social justice part of the title of your book. How do you encourage people who are sensitive to work in social justice contexts as a sensitive person?

DCT: I will say off the bat that it's not easy. So you are dealing with all of the challenging workplace cultures and contexts that we've already been talking about. And on top of it, I think the kind of work itself, there's this emotional load that you're bearing, right? The stakes feel really high in terms of everything that you're working on. If you're in the nonprofit sector, it is, well, I think the same as in ministry, right? There's always too much to do. There's not enough people to do it. There's not enough resources. And so there is a sense of, I just have to keep going and everything I do matters. Every moment that I rest means that it's a moment that I'm not working toward a meaningful cause. And it can be really easy to be pulled into this way of working that is incredibly intense, incredibly high pressure, and doesn't allow for any space to breathe, to reflect, to take a pause to even sort of reorient yourself and reground yourself on why it is that I'm doing this to begin with, right?

So, in my own personal experience, I went into this work very much passionate about wanting to serve people, wanting to bring God's justice and peace and love to the world. And yet over time, I spent so much time working and putting so much emphasis on sort of the nobility and the importance of the work that I was doing, that that actually became central, right? That became what what I was kind of revolving everything around instead of God. And so there became this really unhealthy dynamic in which my identity was in my work, it was good work, it was meaningful work, but still, that's where my identity had gone. And it pulled me into some really unhealthy patterns of just not taking any Sabbaths, right? Not ever saying no, trying to please everyone, trying to do everything perfectly.

And I think that those are the kinds of things that sensitive people are susceptible to because we want to do, we wanna fix everything. We wanna make everything right 'cause we notice all the wrong things that are around us, and we wanna make people happy. 'Cause we notice when people are unhappy with us, we wanna make all of these wrongs, right. And yet, I think we just need to understand that each of us, we're just one person. And we are limited in our humanity. And that that's okay, because I feel like when we recognize our own limitations and our own humanity, it actually, at least for me, has made it much easier to give grace to others, to recognize the humanity and the limitations of others. It's also, I have found very much a question of faith, of believing that in those times when I am tired, when I need to rest, when I'm simply not capable of doing something, if I step back, I'm trusting that somebody else will step forward. God will call someone else to step forward. God himself will step in. This is not my work alone. I am one part of this beautiful mosaic of work that God is doing here on earth.

LA: Do you have an example from your work experience of a time where this was really hard and you changed the way you worked to make it more fitting to your own nature?

DCT: I will say that in general, my example is not one I would encourage people to follow 'cause I made a lot of mistakes.

LA: So let's hear a bad example and then we'll know not to do it.

DCT: Yes. So for example, in my 20s, I basically was, this is when you're in your 20s. I was young, I was healthy, I was energetic, and yet I still, I was burning out every two years, because I pushed myself so hard and did not acknowledge any of the symptoms that my mind and body were exhibiting that I was going at it too hard for too long. So at the age of 23, I started having heart palpitations. I started having insomnia. I started having shortness of breath. And you're young, you're naive. I just thought that was normal, that that's what stress looks like. And so then I would change jobs every two years because I thought that it was the job. And maybe it was a little bit the job, but I think it was mostly the way that I chose to be in the job.

So then I would start over again. By the time I was 26, I had a really, really severe burnout. And so I fell into a very severe depression, was pretty much just in bed for four months, couldn't work, had to quit my job, could only sleep, cry, eat, and see my therapist.

And even then, I did not really change my ways. So went back to work a few months later, tried to find a job that was a little bit less demanding, had more boundaries built in, but I myself still didn't know how to set my own boundaries. And then when I was 29, my husband and I moved overseas. We moved to mainland China to help set up the operations for his social enterprise. They were making solar powered lights for families in developing countries without access to reliable electricity. And we were manufacturing the lights in China in an industrial city called Shenzhen. I am Chinese American, but my family speaks Cantonese, not Mandarin. And I'm Chinese American. I am not from China. I have spent very little time there. And so moving there was a huge shock, a huge culture shock, made all the harder by the fact that I look Chinese.

And so everybody there expected me to already know everything, understand everything, be able to speak the language. And so the locals were very frustrated with me, and did not hesitate to tell me every day how frustrated they were with me. So I had the really challenging cross-cultural context. We were doing a startup, anyone who's worked in a startup, you know that that's already extraordinarily stressful. It was a startup with a social mission. So then I threw in my, of course I have to do everything possible and sacrificed myself in order to try to save the world kind of paradigm. And you put all those things together and it was just the perfect storm for basically an entire collapse of my body, heart, mind, soul. Everything just fell apart after less than a year of doing this. And it was for sure one of the hardest experiences of my life. I fell into depression again coupled with severe anxiety. And this time, that season lasted for more than a year. Again, had to quit my job, could not work, could barely even function. It was an incredibly humbling time.

It was a time where I felt like, I referenced that my identity was almost completely built around my work. And in that moment, my entire sense of identity was destroyed. And I felt like there was nothing left of me. And yet, looking back now, I see that time as awful as it was. And as much as I wish I didn't have to go through it, I see that as a time of God's immense grace, because I was not willing to stop the unhealthy patterns that I was in. And so then I was forced to stop. And God forced, like, he dismantled everything in my life that was not working and asked me to trust him that it could be rebuilt again. So it was a long road of several years of coming back from that, trying to figure out who I was, who God had made me to be, what I was called to do.

I still had a, this really incredible heart for justice, but just didn't know how to engage in the work in a healthy way. And so that's when I made a really significant career pivot and moved into writing and have been doing that for more than 10 years now. And writing was so healing for me personally, but it also helped open up my mind to the possibilities of, there are other ways of doing this. That artists, as you mentioned, Mark, the artists among us are some of the most powerful advocates for what our world could look like if it was more just, if it was more beautiful, if we treated one another with more kindness, right? And so that's a lot of what storytelling and writing is, is about connecting us to our shared humanity and casting a vision for what could be.

And yet at the same time, it was also a vocation that was incredibly nourishing to my soul. It didn't just drain me completely, but it filled me and brought me back to life and gave me energy. And it connected me to other people who were suffering or having a hard time or asking questions in really meaningful and powerful ways. And so I think that was the first time that I began to realize that just because I want to be in this justice space, it doesn't mean that I have to do it in the same way that I see other people doing it. I can do it in my own way. And to some extent, I think that's what God has called us each to do, is to find our own particular way with the particular gifts that he has given us to serve him and to serve others.

MR: Well Dorcas, I mean, first just thank you for sharing that story. 'Cause I'm thinking of two kinds of listeners. And the first group would be folk who are like, oh my gosh, you're describing me. And just the gift of your telling your story is gonna be really important to some people, to acknowledge where they are and identify some of the things that were problematic and also some of the things that have been healing. But then there's also the group of people that they aren't like that, but they know people like that, and they care for people like that. And I think if you can't relate on the inside to what you're saying, it's sometimes really hard to understand what's going on with my friend? What's going on with my spouse? And what you're talking about, I think is gonna give ways for folk to think about how to understand and love the people they care about in their lives.

And my third response is simply, so one of my mentors in life is a man named Howard Butt Jr. Who now has been with the Lord. And Howard was an amazing leader and writer, founded Laity Lodge, was part of the HEB grocery company in Texas. I mean, really an amazing, accomplished human being. But one of the greatest, well the the greatest challenge in his life is he talked about it much as you had, was his own struggle with depression, very serious depression. And that, you could say that was this, it was the thorn that he had to bear. And with that thorn, which was extremely painful at the same time, it gave him a tenderness and an openness to God. I mean, it really, it was a gift. It's, as you've said, it was just this weird 'cause... And I think if Howard were alive today and listening to this, first of all, he'd be thrilled and grateful to you for telling the story that needs to be told. But I think he would also say a big amen to the way that, as you said, God is in this, and God can use even these things for good. And I think that that's just such an important word.

DCT: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

LA: The other thing I'm thinking about Howard Butt, he, but who's a great inspiration to us all is that he was a very successful businessman. I wanted dispel the idea that if someone is sensitive, that means they have to be in a support role, or that means they're not out in front in business or pursuing new ideas or bringing new ideas into the marketplace. I think it means that there's a way of processing the world that is a sensitivity and a demands sensitivity from ourselves, for ourselves. But there's also a super power of sensitive souls that they are the type of people who can create, envision new ideas that are empathetic to the people around them. They can create, like Howard did create a company that values its employees and genuinely looks to their good, in a way that a leader who did not have particular empathy might overlook.

DCT: Yes, yes. I think sensitive souls are, they excel at creativity, at looking at things differently, seeing things differently, and creating spaces where people feel really welcomed, where people feel like they can bring all of who they are and they can thrive and they can grow. And I think ultimately right, that that's what we're all hoping for in a workplace, that it would be a space where I can fully be myself and I can bring all that I have to contribute and I can learn a lot and do work that is really meaningful to me.

MR: Yeah. And for those who are not wired that way to be sensitive, And there, as you've said, there's no judgment in that. It's just differences in the way that people are put together. If those who are sensitive have the opportunity to express and lead and teach, it's helpful for the others. Now, I think here, just my own family. My wife is much more sensitive than I am. And I used to marvel when we were parenting our children, especially when they were younger at the things she would see and feel that I would completely miss. And I was a much, there you go. I was a much better father because I had a partner who was sensitive so that I could be a better dad to my kids in things that I would've missed. And so you can imagine the workplace, whether it's a a for-profit or non-profit, whatever it is, a church and a family that when you have different people with different gifts, there's the potential, right, for wonderful learning and collaboration and ultimately for things to be much better than they would be if you didn't have that kind of mix.

DCT: Yes, absolutely. I think we need one another. And we are healthier and stronger when we have one another. For sensitive folks like myself, it can sometimes be tempting to wanna hide out a little bit and just stay in our safe little bubble with other highly sensitive people, so that we can all just be sensitive together. But it is, I think, extraordinarily healthy and important for us all, regardless of your temperament, your personality, to stretch ourselves and to be willing to engage with, learn from, people who are very different from us. I have only been able to become slightly less of a perfectionist, because I have worked with a lot of less sensitive people. My husband included. Like, he's, and that doesn't mean that he's not an incredibly wonderful, empathic person. He's just not highly sensitive.

He doesn't have that particular personality trait. But I have worked with a number of people who have said to me, it's good enough. And I never knew what the concept of good enough was until I worked with people who thought differently from me. Or just the idea of like, sometimes you can have a disagreement about something in the workplace, and it doesn't have to be anything personal to do with me. They just might disagree with something I've done or some perspective I have, but they still have a deep love and respect for me. It doesn't change our relationship at all, right? And that's been so helpful for me to have that perspective in bringing that to disagreements of like, okay, we can sort of draw some lines around this is what we're disagreeing about, but our relationship, our mutual care and affection for one another can remain unchanged even as we work through some of these challenging things.

LA: I think there is this desire to kind of hide out, as you said, in a group of other sensitive souls, but I've also seen workplace cultures change when someone who is sensitive is just willing to model empathy in a conversation with other people, or willing to admit their own empathy. I was in a workplace meeting very recently where a man, so someone who's a man in a position of power, someone who's not usually viewed as sensitive, apologized for a way he had phrased something, he saw a look on a woman's face that she jumped at this way he had phrased a sentence and he said, I'm so sorry, this seems to have hurt you.

And not in like, the way that I said that, that sounded kind of like demeaning. But it was really actually a moment of modeling. Like, I've seen something that I said had a negative effect, and now I'm gonna walk it back and take a pause and remind us that we all have emotions and there is a relationship between us that needs to be nurtured. Now, I'm not saying that we apologize for everything in every work meeting because that can be then become a gimmick, or it has a possibility to provoking to other people. But I feel like there's a way in which owning our sensitivity in group dynamics can give other people permission to have feelings in a way that often in the workplace we're not allowed to have feelings.

DCT: Yes, yes. I would love for more sensitive souls to not only fully accept who they are, but embrace it and go with it and not be afraid to show the world, show your colleagues, yeah, this is who I am, this is what I bring. And it may not be what we typically see, but there's something really wonderful in this as well. And it's a risk. You don't always know how people may respond. But I think it's absolutely a risk worth taking.

MR: So I'm thinking of an occasion. Many years ago when I was leading a meeting, and we came to, in conclusion on an issue and we voted on it and we're moving on. And one of my elders who actually was quite an accomplished leader in the business world, he said, it was so interesting. He said, "I know we made that decision and we'll stick with it, but I'm sensing that people, some of us are not really okay with it, and I'm thinking maybe we ought to just listen a little bit more." And I was completely unaware, completely unaware. And generally you don't do something like that in a meeting. And generally he wouldn't have us do it. But the point was we reopened the conversation and that was really important. It didn't change the decision, but it greatly changed the sense of unity and the mutual understanding. And I've just always thought of that, as like, I'm so glad that guy was in the room, 'cause I would've just marched onto the next thing and never gone there. And so an example of where his being able to embrace and express his particular sensitivity really helped our group.

DCT: Yeah, that's a great example.

LA: It's interesting that we're pointing out these examples, this big moments in our lives that we've noticed where really this is just people talking. These are moments of people talking where some new aspect of relational empathy got inserted into the conversation. And that was very meaningful. And I think that's one of the great lessons that sensitive souls in our midst and the sensitivity within our own souls can teach us, is that there are powerful moments that we might miss because of the way we rush through our work days and rush through our work tasks. But the real grace of God in those moments might also be missed. And it's worth having a sensitivity to that to bring it to the fore.

DCT: Yes. It reminds me of that. I believe it's a Maya Angelou quote where paraphrasing, but essentially she's saying people may not remember what you say or what you do, but they'll always remember how you made them feel. And I think that that's something that sensitive people excel at, 'cause they, that consideration of how others are doing is always top of mind for us. You wanna make sure that the people around you are okay. And that's a really powerful insight and gift to bring to the world.

LA: This is a wonderful conversation. Dorcas, thank you so much. Again, for those who wanna read your book, the title of the book is "Social Justice for the Sensitive Soul: How to Change the World in Quiet Ways." And I feel a little bit more sensitized actually to the ways that we're all changing the world in very quiet ways in our workplaces. So I'm really grateful for that. Dorcas, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

MR: Thank you, Dorcas.

DCT: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation.

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